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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 20:38:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: isdisco3
Blasters:
- increase base damage by 25-40% to compensate for lack of range. falloff stays the same
- increase tracking by 20-30%, or some number which lets them hit bs in their optimal but not frigates.
- result is that it does sick dps within 4km, and decent to bad beyond that.
Autocannons:
- increase base damage marginally (10% or so), and change the tempest
- increase its optimal to 10-15km varying by size, give it a matching falloff
- result is a skirmish, standoff weapon with medium-high dps which helps engage at decent range.
Lasers:
- lower damage by 15%
- nerf scorch, no short-range weapon should have a 45km optimal
- result is a longer-range, but not unreachable, BS with decent damage
Do that, and we'll have as new roles:
Blasters:
- in your face pwnination, if you get inside its 2-3km optimal, you're probably boned.
Autocannons:
- standoff weapons, doing good damage at decent range, but nothing excessive
Lasers:
- longer-range weapons, doing 2nd-to-3rd damage, able to engage at decent ranges.
So you create (3x damage mod+drones)
Blaster mega:
1309+317 = 1626dps close range (up to 4,5km). 2x blaster mega = sieged dread damage
654.5+317 = 971.5dps at 17,5km (opti+faloff, faloff included in damage calc)
In this range it vaporizes everything including cruisers and if wrecking hit including frigs. Cruisers melt in 5 seconds after being locked.
AC maelstrom:
1138,5dps close range (20+20 as you say) with worse tracking than mega. So pretty much up to around 15km mega outdamages everything.
Mega pulse geddon:
726.75+317= 1043.75dps (at 15km)
So whats the point of flying anything except mega after your "uber" changes?
Or maybe lets just remove stacking penalty from damage mods?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 21:36:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 29/05/2009 21:42:32
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 29/05/2009 21:41:42
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So pretty much up to around 15km mega outdamages everything.
That actually seems very very reasonable, though I might really prefer 11-12km.
Quote:
Mega pulse geddon:
726.75+317= 1043.75dps (at 15km)
That doesn't seem all that heinous to me. Maybe it's because I frequently fly Minmatar and we wish we could deal 1000 DPS at 15km.
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So whats the point of flying anything except mega after your "uber" changes?
I dunno.... engaging outside of scrambler range? Already most fights happen well outside of the 5-10km range (frequently well into the 20-40km range).
-Liang
If fight is outside scrambler range its usually sniper fest. The mythical "mid range" still doesnt exist (short range was just moved from 20 to 28km due to introduction of overheat and t2 scrams).
Whats wrong about that mega? Maybe:
- it can kill ANY cruiser in 20km without need of scrammer. Even geddon cant fry stuff that fast (tracking issue, something mega has aplenty)
- pretty much reverts the "web nerf" (so ability of cruiser to stay alive in BS gun range)
- reduces the "increased HP" effect CCP introduced a while ago. Result? If you boost DPS to 1600ish value next thing you will see is "HP buff patch" in next 6-24months
in results of above people will cry to boost damage again
So no, idea is bad. Also having 2x mega deal dps of sieged dread is wrong somewhere dont you think? Oh yea you dont... you fly mega.
EDIT:
CRAP I WAS WRONG !!!!
i forgot about null
null mega damage (in optimal): 1043+317 (1360) optimal 11km+16km faloff. 838dps (half of gun damage+full drones) at 27km.
scorch geddon (after change): 929.9 at 27km. Wow so after changes mega can almost take out geddon at 25km. Actually if we include resists... it can. So yeah, balance 4tw?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 22:23:00 -
[3]
Originally by: isdisco3
Edited by: isdisco3 on 29/05/2009 21:53:30
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
So you create (3x damage mod+drones)
Blaster mega:
1309+317 = 1626dps close range (up to 4,5km). 2x blaster mega = sieged dread damage
654.5+317 = 971.5dps at 17,5km (opti+faloff, faloff included in damage calc)
That's innacurate. Its optimal would be 4.5km, and it would be doing full damage only within that range. By 8km, its doing half its blaster damage tops (650) + drones (317). By 17.5km, its doing 25% its blaster damage tops (327) + drones (317). Furthermore, I don't know where you're getting hte base number of 1309 anyway; at 25% increase over what we have now in damage my numbers (using t1 ammo) give me 1016 dps optimal, which would scale down with range. I don't see that as too ridiculous. A 40% increase probably would be, however.
Isnt faloff on neutrons 12,5km (with skills)? Thus 4,5opti + 12,5km faloff = 17km half damage range? Im talking about current TQ mechanics not yet another random "rewrite everything" idea. So if faloff on neutrons is 12,5km then my point stands. Its stupidly overpowered.
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Originally by: Deva Blackfire
In this range it vaporizes everything including cruisers and if wrecking hit including frigs. Cruisers melt in 5 seconds after being locked.
Its tracking is only slightly enhanced, so it is doubtful it would hit frigs and cruisers.
Neutron tracking is around 0,075 on maxskill mega. Megapulse is around 0.031 on maxskill geddon. If you boost it by 20% or so you are getting close to 3x better tracking than geddon. Tell me how fast geddon kills cruisers at 15-20km range? And how fast will kill it mega with same (similiar) dps but 3x higher tracking?
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I don't know where you're getting 1,100 dps from (my numbers with 3 gyros give me 755 autocannon dps), and I didn't suggest 20+20, I suggested 15km max optimal.
3x gyro + rf emp + 800's + 4x ogre. Like i said earlier i added drones into all ships. Ya can remove em if you want, then do the same for all other values (every one i did was with drones).
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And being able to hit for full damage out to 15km, as compared to the mega's total range of 17ish with max damage inside 4, is a major advantage.
Yes but as stated above: said mega will outdamage mael even at maels optimal and into megas faloff if it ever gets 40% dps boost. Null makes wonders.
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Also, note that I'm only using t1 ammunition. I view t2 as an entirely different problem, which it is. Many of their bonuses are offset by their penalties and as a result aren't used, and t2 ammunition was one of the highest issues in the issue thread. Obviously when affecting these things we have to take t2 into account at some point, however.
I used faction. Thats why your numbers on mega are way off. T2 closerange cuts optimal and faloff on mega by 50%. Faction does not. And with faction ammo and 40% damage boost on mega it gets really stupid. Pretty much mega will dominate in (almost) whole disruptor range (leaving off 22-28km range for geddon/mael).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 22:31:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Suedomza Ralav
As for people saying there is no such thing as mid-range combat, they don't seem to understand what happens with small gangs. At a gate, someone can appear at a variety of ranges to you. Currently, a blaster ship has to burn towards the opponent to apply their damage, and often once that ship is popped, has to repeat to get into range of the next target. Laser ships are almost always within prime damage dealing range for gate combat without significant movement. Blasters need a dps boost to make up for this style of combat. During an engagement, the time spent traveling to optimal (even during gate fights, which are considered close-range), greatly reduces the amount of damage they can deal.
Its more about blob. But it also depends on gang size. if we have 50rr bs vs 50rr bs you can be damn sure that every mega WILL be in range of every other ship after 30seconds of combat. RR blobs dont move around usually. Thats why "gate range" argument is moot. If ppl who jump in are in RR BS they will get closer to each other, usually approaching gate thus getting into megas (standing on gate) range. And vice-versa. Mega gang jumping into geddon gang will approach and reform on geddons. Thus the time they lose their DPS advantage is said 30 seconds. After that they can melt anything because nobody manouvres around with rr gang.
And if you have mega gang (rr) and enemy doesnt want to get close you can use null aswell and just kill everything one by one. RR will tank enemies will not.
And no mid-range is almost non existant. Just close range was moved a bit further due to 24+4overheat pointers. Mid range distance (25-45 so pulse range) is quite rare and usually used on approach. Most of the time i fight i use multi anyways (rr blobs like above).
Also someone before (cant remember who now) wanted to make pulses very weak but long (40km?) range. So... what about beams? Arent beams 40km optimal weapons? So here we enter beam range with pulses. And either pulses will be weaker = everyone uses beams or pulses will be better = everyone uses pulses.
When it comes to t2 ammo (and t2 long range ammo) its all borked. We have 9 ammo types per weapon (or 7... cant remember now). Anyways long range ammo does 2nd or 3rd best damage at range of 2nd or 3rd best ranged ammo. So its best of the both worlds... It could be like rages: +20% damage over faction ammo. Soe in scorch example it should deal 20% damage over amarr navy microwave (iirc... cant remember ammo types atm).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.29 23:40:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Saint SaintaN
Originally by: whoyoulookingat
Edited by: whoyoulookingat on 29/05/2009 09:10:49
I suggest the follow to fix close range guns (THESE ARE EXAMPLES):
Blasters:
up to max 7.5km Optimal / 2.5km falloff
x2 tracking
Leave damage types as they are
These are your up close, in your face, tear a new hole in your prey type of gun
AutoCannons:
Up to max 20km Optimal / 20km falloff (reduce falloff dps by half)
x1 tracking
Leave damage types / Adjust range modifiers to fit to new settings
AC's are your "I ain't getting close cos i ain't got a tank (or poor one) fitted" - Ships rely on speed & range yet currently suffer from the falloff syndrome which screws their DPS up.
Increased optimal rectifies this & the falloff is for those that are too nervous to get into tackling range. 
Pulse:
40km optimal / bugger all falloff
x.5 tracking
damage types the same / range multiplier possible tweaking required?
With the long optimal it's suffice to say that these should be used @ the maximum range for close combat (i'd be inclined to say they're more mid range though).
They shouldn't hit jack at up to 20km yet can tear things apart past this range or at the edge of the field.
Tracking wise, I kept to full digits instead of the usual 0.00whatevers to demonstrate the difference of each example type - obviously they are alot lower ingame but helps when trying to do examples.
TA DA - we now have 3 different weapons, all unique & all with a defined roll.
As for missiles - they have fof so can continue to spam even when jammed.. erm.. not sure what else!! hehe
I actually quite like your idea, it would give the weapons a set of unique roles whilst not gimping any of them however I would make a minor change.
At the moment you have:
blasters at 200% tracking
auto's at 100% tracking
pulses at 50% tracking
I would be more inclined to put
blasters at 125% tracking
auto's at 100% tracking
pulses at 50% tracking
My reasoning is that there are number of mods that will help blaster boats and not many that will help the people being tracked.
Otherwise I really like the way you have defined the weapons even if it is just an outline which ccp can add the figures to.
so whats the difference between pulses and beams now?
and to others: yeah checked, at 1x faloff ya get ~40% not 50% dps. My bad
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 08:47:00 -
[6]
Quote:
Keep in mind that all 3 of these setups are gank, with armor buffer and no active tank. Now I even think 925 dps on a thorax is quite high, but 1700 dps on a full gank mega sounds about right to me. After doing those calculation I might suggest that the different sizes of blasters be changed individually. I think a roughly 50% damage increase for all blaster sizes would be a good start on the test server so see how it works.
You didnt read what i wrote did you? Or just ignored the fact that adding 40% to blaster mega damage using current tq stats and current tracking will OBLITERATE any cruiser in 0-24 (point range) radius? Due to how tracking works you will end up with same DPS as geddon does at those ranges (or higher) and 2x better tracking.
And how does "no active tank only buffer" balance it out when everyone uses buffers nowadays and has quite similiar tank?
Also how can you kill 30mega RR gang (with your stats) using ANY other ships? Well except maybe for multiple titans or huge carrier rr blob.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 12:50:00 -
[7]
Eos was overpowered. There was no point using any other CS than eos.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 21:06:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Leto Aramaus
"Also how can you kill 30mega RR gang (with your stats) using ANY other ships? Well except maybe for multiple titans or huge carrier rr blob."
I don't even know what that means... I'm not sure if you think I said that or not.
You wanted 70% (lol) damage boost didnt you? I wrote more-less how damage over range would look like (slight mistake on my side, took 50% dps at opti+faloff, it is around 37-40% actually).
You see only "whoah 1700dps mega! thats awesome" yet you fail to see that blaster DPS increase doesnt work ONLY in 0-5km range. it also works for null ammo thus up to opti+2x faloff range (effective range being opti+faloff = around 26km). And i shown already that your 70% dps boosted mega will outdamage everything up to around 22km.
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Also I think you took me seriously when I said 200% damage increase wouldnt be fair. I dont want a HUGE bonus to hybrid tracking, FFS. People like Deva are not even comprehending what I'm posting.
As you can see i was only looking and commenting 70% damage increase. 200% damage increase would outdamage moros in normal fit.
Unless you mean 200% tracking. Still even ignoring tracking (lets say mega gets 70% damage 0% tracking boost) mega tracks 2x better than geddon. People always whine how fast geddons kill cruisers at 20km. Yet you are creating something which deals more damage at 20km than geddon AND tracks 2x better from start (thats TQ stats for you!) than said geddon. So no, you didnt say this. I just took your idea and explained it further, something you perhaps missed out or perhaps didnt want to tell.
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Deva, In my opinion, if a... lets say Amarr cruiser, an Omen, encounters a megathron and tries to engage it, so it gets within 5-6km and gets webbed by a Mega, it should get OBLITERATED by a full rack of large blasters... it's a cruiser vs a Battleship, nearly any cruiser should be OBLITERATED by a battleship in its optimal range.
And it wont die? Im fairly sure omen in blaster range will live for arond 5 seconds. BUT your thing creates 20km "death sphere". Also (im not some tracking formula genius here) isnt 10km+web (lets say 50%) tracking exactly same as 20km no web one?
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But just to try and get less flame next time someone responds to me, lets say a Stabber encounters the same megathron, and his setup is designed to orbit at 10km and deal damage. So the mega can't web it, and I do NOT think tracking on blasters should be buffed enough to hit a speed oriented ship that is INTENDED to dodge shots.
I think i dont understand you. Or you dont understand the game. At 10km mega will web it and kill easily (webs web at 10-13km due to overheat). Again not sure whats the break point at which stabber will evade blaster fire (under web) but id imagine its under 5km orbit.
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You guys laugh at me like asking for Blaster battleships and the cruiser "blaster boats" to get a damage buff is the most unbalanced idea ever. But you still don't read when I say, their INTENDED role, as far as I know, is to be the ships that you are afraid of if you are in their range and especially so if you're immobilized. Right now they dont do THAT much more damage than other ships in their class, so they are gimped.
Ok. 70% blaster buff. Taranis. My taranis does 200dps with blasters alone. With your buff its 340dps. Add 2 drones its 380dps. You just outdamage all t1 cruisers, some t2 using interceptor. So whats the point of using HAC over a ceptor now?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 21:07:00 -
[9]
Quote:
"Or just ignored the fact that adding 40% to blaster mega damage using current tq stats and current tracking will OBLITERATE any cruiser in 0-24 (point range) radius?"
^^Nothing I suggested would result in that. And I am pretty sure on TQ today, no large blaster would hit anything at 20 km, ever. And I do not want them to be able to. Stop acting like I am requesting perfect tracking at any range, read my whole post and don't take all my suggestions to the extreme.
Id advise you to take neutron blaster t2 + null ammo and check again. You might get surprised.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 22:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leto Aramaus
First of all...
I was posting 70% damage increase stats to SHOW everyone what it would look like.
And i shown everyone it would look ******ed.
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If you EVER read what I wrote, you would see I said I think 50% damage increase would be a starting point, and test from there.
Same as above.
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I keep talking about short range and you keep saying 20km death range.
I'm talking. about. close. range.
20km IS CLOSE RANGE. CAPISHI? Everything inside 24km is CLOSE RANGE COMBAT. So called mid range is outside of point range but not yet sniper range. The MIDDLE ground as name suggests.
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NOT Null ammo. I think blasters should do HIGHER damage and CLOSE RANGE. GET IT?????????
See thats your problem. you want blasters to be uber close range yet you NEVER define what is your close range or what boosts/changes youd like to see. All you say is some random "damage boost in close range" idea. And again i shown you that even with null blaster mega operates within close range ammo.
Quote:
If the damage increase resulted in the ability to do their really high DPS at too high range, then a change would be needed to make that stop happening.
This is the FIRST time you actually posted something sensible. Next time try to put more sense into rest of your posts.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.30 22:56:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Forge Lag
I would really prefer blasters to be "special" rather than more powerfull.
What about giving them bleed damage even at 100% buffer.
Bleeding into untanked layer is indirect DPS bonus. And since bleed goes into structure eventually, you better sort that ship out before it will inevitably kill you, no matter how strong spidertank you have.
Blaster currently do not warrant the limitations they have. They are not as bad as people paint them but they kinda lack merit.
Projectiles could have... say heat resistance. A heat treshhold where they do not take heat damage. That means that for a short amount of time you can overheat them without penalty. More spike DPS to artilery and more incentive to hit and run.
You can make those some easy skills just to give people something fun to train for.
Fun fact. Thats exactly what people proposed when lasers were "le suck". To give em bleeding/damage over time/vampire effects. So i doubt CCP will ever want to make such differences between weapon systems.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 00:22:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 31/05/2009 00:22:52
Originally by: Leto Aramaus
Dev you didn't show anybody anything.
Here: I think blaster changes should look like this
small- 10-20% damage increase, optimal same as now (500m-2000m)
medium- 25-30% damage increase, optimal same as now (1500m-3000m)
large- 30-40% damage increase, optimal same as now (4000m-6000m)
tracking of all sizes- increased very SLIGHTLY so it is no longer terrible
What about faloff? What will happen if i load null? Again: you DID NOT RESPOND TO THIS. And again: it will be overpowered on mega if you load null with changes you proposed just now. Same problem will happen on medium blaster ship line. And exactly same thing will happen in small weapon range. Ceptor duels will be even more unbalanced on ranis side. No t1 cruiser will be able to win vs thorax unless heavily nanoed. etc.
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20km is close range? Yea no sh*t for capital ships, but I'm not talking about capital ships whatsoever.
No, 20km aka "disruptor range" is close range. Thats why ALL "closerange" battleship guns can hit up to 20km. The "mid range" starts where others cant reach but amarr still can. Around 20-60km range. Ofc some minnies can cover around half of "mid" range too thx to faloff.
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If blaster t2 ammo increases the range the same way it does now, then the damage should be further reduced in my plan.
And HERE is your wrong way of thinking. Yes range will be around 10k IF you use void. Problem is: NOONE uses void. So the "1500-1700dps at 10km" is balls. Because people WILL load navy antimatter and reach to around 15km (with opti+faloff). Or load NULL and go to 22ish km.
The ONLY way to stop this is totally kill faloff on blasters. And kill null range increases.
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You seriously don't get a thing I say, and you have yet to mention a single real flaw in my ideas.
Just mentioned more than one.
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ASNWER THIS: How am I wrong when I say blasters are supposed to be the highest damage dealing weapons in the game, and therefore need to be changed to reflect that and make their strategy useful.
Welcome to TQ. Blasters ARE highest damaging weapon. Go play with the numbers.
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Do you think they do enough damage already?
Yes they do. Maybe 5% damage boost could do it for all i care. Due to fact how RR bs gangs work (hello, you didnt even comment on it - total ignorance when i shown you the FACTS) the "pulse advantage" lasts till 1st enemy ship pops. Then Blaster DPS and tracking advantage > pulse range.
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Do you think blaster ships are balanced at the moment, and can fairly fight other ships of their class?
Yes they can, quite easily in fact. Next time learn from good blasterboat pilots.
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70%, we can agree, is far too high. I like my 25% number. Null won't make it *that* deadly, because null on a mega gives it 11km optimal max. That's almost equal ot my proposed minmatar optimal, and well short of the proposed amarr optimal.
You are still ignoring 16km faloff when null is loaded.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 01:27:00 -
[13]
Im sorry you cant respond to any of the arguments even if they have ben laid in front of you. And grow up tbh.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 01:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
70% is excessive, but part of the point of a DPS boost would be to emphasize close range damage and give it something at range. As things stand right now its really kinda questionable if I'd fly something that did even 2K DPS at <5km and was totally ineffective by 12-15km.
I mean, I might... but I doubt I'd do it in a battleship sized hull. They just can't get on target fast enough to make it matter.
-Liang
And thats the problem why cutting range and improving DPS massively wont work. You could go for 1700dps with 4-6km range, sure. It would be VERY hard hitting in small RR gangs (10-15 people) but... thats it. Those ships would be pretty much useless in larger scale fights wheras like i stated earlier: current megas work nicely in up to 20km range. If you solo you need to survive till ya get close but at typical gate engagement its arund 13km from enemy. Thats not far and you can put web on him within first 5-10 seconds of combat. If its geddon you can be sure he wont counterweb. Laser boat dies.
In rr gangs sure laser boats have an advantage UNTIL rr gangs get close to each other. And then you dont have "jumping from target to target" anymore. Both blobs sit close to each other and dish it out close range trying to mantain 5km distance to operate RR.
Actually i cant think of many situations where mega would have to "mwd from target to target". Maybe capital ship ganks when there are 2-5 caps to kill and gang has to get close to each of em. Most of the time you will get ceptor MWD 200+km out, warp to ceptor and warp down to target anyways so whole laser boat range advantage dies.
And like i said: i use lasers heavily (amarr was my 1st race to train up to lv5+t2 guns) and use scorch rarely. usually to pop bombers/EAS if they dont move around and just sit there and spam missiles/ewar ;p
When it comes to megas IMO 5% damage boost would be enough. Would bring ~1250dps mega up to ~1320dps. Also slight tracking boost would be nice. But not 50%, 100% or 10000%, more like 10-15%.
Lasers? Just remove old tracking boost. Fixed.
ACs are harder to balance. I personally liked the idea of increasing optimals on them (the 15+15, 20+20 or something like that). Problem is if you change ACs this way you will have to review medium and small ACs (sleip might become WAY too good compared to astarte, so can be vaga vs deimos). But id have to take a look at dps at different ranges. Its too late now tho for me to check it.
Also like you say: speeds can also be reworked a bit. 10% increase for gall/min (to keep both in line) is okish.
Ofc all above is ONLY on battleship level (unless stated otherwise).
One more thing: i liked Perry's idea on commands. Especially the rep amount thingy. Wont imbalance stuff and will just push gall ships into active tanks rather than buffer. There is only slight problem: hyperion. I guess bonus would have to be exclusive for BC class ships (and maybe smaller).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 01:57:00 -
[15]
And just to show how megas fare in RR gangs (vs other RR/close range gangs):
http://triumvirate-alliance.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=2742021
Things worth noting:
vs battleships its quite balanced (sometimes megas dealt more, sometimes amarr ships - mostly dependant on where was target at the time of pewpew)
vs HICs/HACs: amarr ships had massive problems with... hitting them. As long as they kept orbitting at around 15km i couldnt hit em at all (there should be one deimos kill but he escaped me at struct :(
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 19:48:00 -
[16]
Originally by: isdisco3
I agree that there are problems with t2 ammunition, but see that as a separate issue. And the hyperion does not do 20% more dps up to 12km, its optimal is 2.5km as I recall so by 12km it would be doing something around 1/3 of its maximum dps (around 300 with just turrets).
Stop. Using. Void.
Noone. Uses. Void.
Dont. Ever. Use. Void. To. Prove. A. Point.
And then suddenly optimal is much bigger than you think. So is faloff.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 20:29:00 -
[17]
Thb i started to wonder. Does every "boost blaster tracking" poster use void instead of navy antimatter? If yes TADAM i found the blaster fix!!! Use navy ammo...
I also think 1st step ccp could do to fix the guns is to remove void from TQ. Less whines from wannabie pilots who use wrong ammo.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.05.31 23:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: isdisco3
lol. if you guys actually read what i've written, you'd see that i've posted all my stats using base t1 ammunition, and the "but wat about void?" arguments came from others.
void argument came out because quite a few people posting here still try to convince me that neutron blaster cannon has 6km faloff (where in fact it is 12,5km and when you load void it is 6km indeed).
So the 1/3 (actually ~40%) damage thing from guns (with navy AM) happens not at 12km but at 17km. With void it does happen at 13km.
Also id advise to use navy ammo for calculations. If we want to play numbers game it should be as close to TQ as possible.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 09:24:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mr Ignitious
I agree with the T2 ammo component, I mean ( I forget which close range ammo it is for, beams or pulse) but a shield hp reduction on an amarr ship... buhahah. What I'm thinking though is perhaps a structure HP reduction for void and probably a dps increase for the ammo. It's a significant penalty but not crippling.
Gleam = close range sniping ammo. As useless as void. When it comes to t2 CLOSERANGE ammo penalties could stay the same as they are now. Just give them additional damage bonus over faction ammo (10%?). And suddenly it becomes useful in some cases.
t2 long range ammo was a joke from the start. Its damage is based on short range ammo yet its "range modifier" is based on long range ammo. It should be just normal ammo with slightly higher dps (10%?) than same type faction long range ammo.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 11:28:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
2. The ability to change damage types. Damn, I would give this one away in a heart beat. Show me one person who is swapping ammo in between targets. Most just use EMP CL, Barrage and Tremor. Some use PP and Fusion. I would be happy if they locked our damage type to Exp/EM/Kin(EMP), or to Exp/Kin(Fusion). The only time I actively match ammo type to target is when I am shooting towers, which is moot, because I am going to be in the lower 1/3 of the KM anyway.
I do swap ammo depending on target. 10 second ammo change will usually (unless its 3 second gank) be worth it.
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4. Uses a damage type that people don't tank for. This is true in some cases, but then many times people do tank for it. In large fleet warfare I agree, but most SR/RR gangs have a strong omni tank, so especially for AC's this is probably not going to be the case.
If its omni tank (DC, EANMs) then explo is armor tanker hole. So explo damage is especially effective against omni tankers. Additionaly explo damage is one of best damage types vs T2 ships (only amarr has natural explo resist, everyone else needs to fix it).
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6. No Cap use. Nice, but personally I don't get neuted that much.... Usually they just kill me. And in many cases an Amarr ship's Cap buffer is enough for them to get through the fight even with a neut. A bit more of a pain in fleet combat and places where you are continuously firing for a long time, although again we are talking AC's.
Then why we dont reintroduce cap use on ACs? the 1 cap per shot (or 0,5 on frigs... dont remember how much it was). And then maybe you will understand how good capless thingy is.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 01/06/2009 18:17:38
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Hardeners are a lot more commonly used in RR fleets, then they are in fleet fits. Since Cap is usually less of a problem, due to everyone having injectors. And usually since RR gangs are built on defense, gank will be sacrificed to build larger resistances, thus making the RR more effective.
Sorry but no. Unless its domi. Most RR ships (especially megas and armas which make majority of rr fleets) dont have enough CPU to put active hardeners. thats why people opt for faction EANMs or even ANPs. And yeh its based on our RR fleets which we use hmm... the most often of all larger alliances in game?
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Mes Ren
EM is the most heavily tanked resists in the game.
In practice this is almost never the case. Most of the time EM is the very best damage type to use in PvP.
Depends on ship tbh. On t1 RR gangs (battleships etc) EM is usually highest resist. When we go into t2 ships world its one of lowest resists (more-less on par with explo).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 19:21:00 -
[22]
Perfect? Tro to fit rr on it = you lose guns. Try to fire and use rep = your cap vanishes. Maybe in your dream world its perfect but when people actually use it its not that shiny.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 21:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: bubbly bird
And you think thats a big loss considering all the other standard RR ships use only 7 high slots for dmg?.
3 x HS RR geddon = 855 turret dps.
3 x HS abaddon = 802 turret dps.
So -53 RAW turret DPS in exchange for 34000+ more ehp and fastansitc resistance coverage.
34k ehp and you die before you get even RR help. Mate fly a bit in RR gangs before you try to tell how "awesome" one ship is.
3x sink on aba + 2x eanm + dc = 1 slot for plate left. 1 plate = you die before people can lock you and rr cycles completes.
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At least they do not need to be at 5km from each target like the mega so no choice between a reduction in dps or a mwd burn/RR/turret fire....now thats high cap usage.
You are both ignorant and lack RR gameplay knowledge. I shown (1-3 pages earlier) link to our KB from typical RR engagement. Megas and geddons/abas deal more-less the same DPS on targets so the "range advantage" means almost nothing ESPECIALLY when you engage another RR gang because they all will be within 5km of each other.
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Maybe in your dream world its perfect but when people actually use it its not that shiny.
Its not a dream as i have used it and i have loved it a lot more than i liked any of the megas or geddons i have flown.
Too bad. Ill take geddon over aba into RR gang anyday. ONLY exception is EHP bait (someone has to decloak first...)
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 09:57:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 09:58:32
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 09:57:40
Quote:
And yet it has more.... 30000-35000 MORE EHP with that setup than pretty much any of the other standard RR BS.....
Barely 25k more than dual plated geddon. Loses almost 170dps in exchange (when using 7 guns).
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So basically get a clue pal cos if the abaddon does not have enough EHP to be good at RR gangs then no ship does as the abaddon even with the setup above has the more EHP than most of the other RR BS.
Reading comprehension ftw, aye? I said that 1 plated aba has not enough EHP to survive sometimes, yes? Total 134k ehp. Yet i managed to lose 131k ehp geddon multiple times by being just 2 salvoed. So yes 134k ehp is nothing ESPECIALLY when you decloak first. Unless you talk about using 10 vs 10 rr gangs, then be my guest. We use em in 50 vs 80-100 fights quite often.
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Originally by: Deva Blackfire
You are both ignorant and lack RR gameplay knowledge.
You are the one thats ignorant and lacks knowledge as you clearly proved above by claiming that the abaddon setup above that has one of the highest ehp tanks of any RR BS would some how melt faster than ships with lower EHP.
You cant read.
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
I shown (1-3 pages earlier) link to our KB from typical RR engagement.
You showed a link that suited your purposes nothing more, trying to claim anything else is a exhageration. I can find plenty of links that have megas using rails in RR gangs.
Yes and i can find links with t1 guns+t1 drones geddons. Your point? If you want browse a bit more thru our killboard and you will see more RR gangs and it always ends up the same. Both megas and geddons end up same place. Hell we even do have fair share of pilots who can fly all races equally and they still fly megas over amarr ship. Not everyone runs after so called "FOTM" because someone on forums said so.
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Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Megas and geddons/abas deal more-less the same DPS on targets so the "range advantage" means almost nothing.
Having a large available range for a tiny dps loss is a huge advantage and anybody who claims other wise is a idiot.
Because having 0,5x tracking modifier compared to blasters is godlike.
Quote:
Oh and if that engagment was at 5km as you seem to claim then it shows how OP lasers are simply because at that range the top dmg dealers should be virtually 100% the blaster ships as that is where they should be melting stuff but its not even close to 100%.
Depends on ship and time of engagement. Started close went further off.
Quote:
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
ESPECIALLY when you engage another RR gang because they all will be within 5km of each other.
WTF are you smoking?, a RR gangs ships only need to be near/within rr range of each other not the hostile gang you total muppet.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 11:09:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 11:09:51
Never said it was BAD rr ship. Just said it was not as perfect as you made it.
Quote:
Just how perfect can one ship be ffs?.
Those are your words. And i said already: if it goes for rr it loses DPS. It has capacitor issues (how long can you perma rr and fire before your cap dies and you are useless?). But like above, i NEVER said its bad. I just said i will take geddon over aba any day and thats exactly what i do. Fly rr geddons because i dont like abaddon and its cap dependancy. plus i'd hate to remove turret to fit rr.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 11:44:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 11:45:08
Does mael really need that much of a damage boost? Flown it only briefly but with 4x gyros and it deals nice DPS + has godly tank at the same time (no-mwd setup for gatecamp breaking). Thing is i had only best named guns (no skill for t2 ones, its qued ;p) so i felt the faloff issue a bit. Thinking now about it... 10-15% higher faloff could help it quite a lot.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.02 13:39:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 13:44:43
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 13:41:57
Originally by: To mare
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 02/06/2009 11:45:08
Does mael really need that much of a damage boost? Flown it only briefly but with 4x gyros and it deals nice DPS + has godly tank at the same time (no-mwd setup for gatecamp breaking). Thing is i had only best named guns (no skill for t2 ones, its qued ;p) so i felt the faloff issue a bit. Thinking now about it... 10-15% higher faloff could help it quite a lot.
if it need 4 damage mods to do the same damage of another ships with 1 damage mod at same range i think it need it.
not to mention falloff dynamics
I used 4 because... well... it fits. Nothing better to put in spare lowslot anyways (4x gyro + dc). Same for torp raven: 4x bcu+dc (4th damage mod still gives around 5-6% = 50-60dps)
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I am still trying to figure out why he is using 4 Gyro's. The 4th Gyro adds 38 EFT DPS onto 876 with a full rack of 800's. A net gain of 4%. What a waste of a low slot. Nano, ECCM maybe.
38dps is a lot if you consider enemy tank. If enemy can tank 800dps and you deal 840 or 880 its almost 2x damage boost. Plus on shieldtanks i always use 4 damage mods. Nightmare, Mael, Raven = 4 dmg mods. If i run large booster (not xl) on sleip i also use 4 gyros.
Nano = waste. Maybe it gives agility+speed but: i want to sit on gate (so no movement) and nano takes my structure away. Not good idea. ECCM? Doesnt matter. If i get ECMd under sentry guns ill either kill falcon (or gate guns will) or will just tank and jump out. And if there is no falcon then its a wasted slot. Adding 4th damage mod is never waste of slot.
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because he have to prove his point that AC are fine
Dont you love those conspiracy theories?
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 00:43:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 03/06/2009 00:46:33
Actually it was tracking boost+(huge)damage boost at same time that made stuff stupid. 5% damage boost+10-15% tracking should be easily doable. Too late now for me to number crunch tho. Thing is: if you want to fix blasters do not touch damage, it screws waaaaay too many things up.
Also on the ACs. 5% damage across the line, slight faloff boost and now... ze tempest:
why not change its bonuses towards damage. 10% damage bonus/level (instead of 5% rof 5% damage) and add another 5/7,5/10% faloff/lvl bonus. Up drone bay to 100-125 at the same time. Effect? Tempest still wont be the best damage dealing platform but: you get more-less same DPS from ACs (loses rof but gains 50% damage at lvl5 and another 5% from AC buff) and at the same time gets huge faloff + some more all round damage from drones.
Result? Better AC boat with 2 spare hislots (for neuts/nosf warfare), better sniper boat (both range boost from faloff and higher alpha from damage instead of ROF).
Just a late night idea tho + i've never flown a pest ;p So i might be totally missing it. What ya think?
EDIT:
actually i think it wouldnt need larger drone bay after all those changes. current pest is 670gun dps (rf emp) 3+20range. After changes it would be around 670dps but at 3+30 range and 3+45 on barrage. Hmmmm.... barrage hitting up to 80km? ;p O well just an idea.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 14:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Best idea would be increase base AC falloff to 40km (lose some tracking to prevent them raping frigs at 100km...
50km with skills, 75km with barrage? Sorry mate but thats not "outdamaging" apoc. Thats up to 120-140km frig killer = using ACs at sniping range. Not gonna happen. And thats even without thinking about "faloff bonus". Thats also around 300dps at 78km (barrage) without mounting any modules (except for 3 gyrostabs). Even apoc cant reach that far without tracking boosts.
Its just another dream world, same as "70% blaster damage boost". Well i even think that in my idea 10%/lvl was too much (especially after looking @ 45km faloff on barrage).
But i guess problem is not guns but ship itself when we look at pest. Some want it to be arti boat, others ac boat. I guess CCP should decide what role tempest does fit. I always saw it as fast AC/cap warfare boat (due to 2 free hislots), others as typical cheap arti boat (dunno why tho, iirc mael is better arti boat anyways). Not saying a word about phoon coz its quite decent ship.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 18:09:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Beverly Sparks
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
50km with skills, 75km with barrage? Sorry mate but thats not "outdamaging" apoc. Thats up to 120-140km frig killer = using ACs at sniping range. Not gonna happen. And thats even without thinking about "faloff bonus". Thats also around 300dps at 78km (barrage) without mounting any modules (except for 3 gyrostabs). Even apoc cant reach that far without tracking boosts.
?????? That is totally on par with the weapon characteristics, and would give it all the same bonuses as Pulse lasers currently enjoy on an Apoc. So you must be saying that the Apoc with Pulses is OP.
RAGERAGERAGE
Now read up and you will see that the proposed idea is AFTER boosting ACs BASE faloff to 40km (so 2x boost) and then adding ANOTHER 1,5x faloff bonus to ship. This means the range gets increased 3x before we even include skills and barrage. 60km faloff on EMP?
Yes apoc has that range on guns. It pays with decent cap use + worse tracking + needs to use lows to get that far. FYI apoc range is 62+10 maxskill (no TEs).
TBH if ya want to do this, sure go for it. Just kill tracking to level of pulse lasers. Either long range weapon with poor tracking or short-mid with good.
And sitting 80km from it in frig? I would be worried if it was bomber or EAS.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.03 21:44:00 -
[31]
Didnt read this page (moves waaaay too fast ;p) but blaster mega tracking could be upped to have similiar effect as 70% web (from t2). Thats 25%? But ya'd have to check how it hits ABing cruisers (they should be able to tank it).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.05 08:40:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 05/06/2009 08:40:54
Originally by: Nuts Nougat
Originally by: To mare
sniper setups need to be DDD proof and if they are double DDD proof is better or enjoy to see your whole fleet destroyed with 1-2hits
oh and GL fitting 8 tachyons on a apoc.
So please then, tell me when was the last time you've seen only one (or 2 for that matter) titans online in a single system.
Yesterday for example. Then 2 days before. And so on. Not everyone sits in ******ed blobfest FYI.
As for fit: 7 tachys here. 2 RCU on ship makes me cry.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.05 10:31:00 -
[33]
Domis, megas, ishtars, myrms. I guess we could throw ships at each other and back for a week and still find more "counters" or "good for small/med/solo/gang" etc. But afaik topic is on weapons not ships. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.05 15:24:00 -
[34]
Actually we lost way more. Fight was going on both sides on gate so you'd have to check another fleet fight from same day. Was mainly to show that in RR situation blasters and lasers are pretty comparable damage wise.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.07 01:19:00 -
[35]
Originally by: RedSplat
So i take it this thread was moved to a subforum no-one reads and that Devs plan to actively ignore the feedback they asked for.
Same **** different situation.
RAGE RAGE RAGE
now read subforum names again...
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.13 00:40:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
* ACs need a significant DPS boost. I'm thinking in the area of 33% more alpha, but a 10% reduced ROF. This equates to a 21% DPS boost, and gives ACs their alpha advantage back.
1200dps on maelstrom? sexy. I guess ya want it to become new king of 1v1 instead of blasterboats? |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.13 17:40:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
1200dps on maelstrom? sexy. I guess ya want it to become new king of 1v1 instead of blasterboats?
Hardly. Blasters would still have a 7.5% greater DPS output over ACs. And with the superior optimal of blasters, the difference would be even higher.
You know its not all about DPS? Damage types favour explosive over kinetic/thermal. Local tank on mael is much better than one on mega (up to the point where you can tank almost whole mega damage with t2 fit + combat booster).
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 12:17:00 -
[38]
You really need to get more experience. Its not all about weapons but weapons and ships that use em and then suddenly everything changes. Like above even if you make ACs on par with blasters (just random example) then AC boats will get overpowered because they usually have better tank (maelstrom) or free utility slots/better speed (pest) than blaster boats. So its not only about DiPiSi.
Then you have to add mixed combat styles, check all other ship sizes (with your idea sleip would get so overpowered its not even funny compared to astarte/abso - and commands are quite balanced as it is now), check damage types, cap use (oh yes lasers DO eat the most cap, run calcs if ya want) etc.
So pretty much major overhaul of all weapon types is out of question.
Also just a hint: lasers are not short range weapon. They are mid range one (damaging ships above scram range) Just fyi. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 13:20:00 -
[39]
Weird coz ones i use dont hit "super fine" unless when you are in proper gang with tacklers/closerange BS with webs. If yes, then it all works properly.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 17:40:00 -
[40]
Originally by: bubbly bird
Maybe you should start thinking along the lines of realistic and available pvp for BS and understand how many webs/tacklers are readily available instead of just looking at the basic eft/math.
Sure, last few losec roams:
mega + geddon + mael = whole 1 web for gang
geddon + geddon + mega = 1 web
and so on. There are plenty of cases where you dont get "enough" webs but you can only talk about blob warfare it seems. Face it: eve is NOT ONLY blobs. There is quite a few small gangs and even solo situations.
And yea my answer was as good as yours. Reality check: lasers do not hit fine unless you have lots of webs on your side. You dont have them always. All your points would make sense ONLY if truly there was no tracking in EVE. Yet still it is in game, still you need to bring webs (which arent always available). So you can aswell stop being biased. |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 19:22:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/06/2009 19:26:53
Originally by: bubbly bird
random insults
except for random insults and some garbage you didnt post anything sensible
I know in "your" eve everyone is webbed from start of combat. Unfortunately in "your" EVE experience there are no kills/losses to prove it. So try again and EFT less.
Also (reading previous pages) you want tracking boost on blaster ships. Why? You just stated that in gang combat tracking doesnt mean anything thus you are contradicting yourself (comparing with your above post). So why boost tracking when its not important? Explain.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 19:45:00 -
[42]
Yup, you just proved my point. Except for trolling you have NOTHING to back up your words. Either decide if you want to boost dps, boost tracking, nerf dps, nerf tracking and post your point of view or just stop posting altogether. Coz you change your standing just to offend and argue with other posters. Typical |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.06.14 21:39:00 -
[43]
Because flying with 3 BS in lowsec just to break gatecamps in not enough? And because i needs 3 webs minimum in EVERY fight, yes? No.
I can fly with 3 bs and even NO webs and still get kills. Learn to play.
I dont whine at my gang mates to bring what i want, neither i wait ages to go to jita or whatever to change setups. I just tell em to "bring BS, we gonna break camps" works well enough. Yes it causes problems. But i wont wait ages for someone to get "omg 3 webs minimum" to start roam/gate breaking.
Also when it comes to EFTing im still waiting to see your PVP results. Any of em. Atmo mine are easily available on battleclinic. So i have word backed up by proofs. Yet you are spilling lots of random drivel, never backed up by facts (hell i even had to give you facts that megas work fine in RR gangs a few pages back) just random crap. And if you cant find a proof all you can do is insult other people.
Lemme guess. Maralt? Coz your posting resembles his. If you and he are the same person then the chatter ends here coz you are one biased troll. |
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